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3 years ago
They aren't actually changing the rule. They're using an "experimental rule" as can be allowed by U.S. Sailing. As long as US Sailing gives permission any class can do that. |
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3 years ago
I thought you couldn't change rules from Part 2. How did ICSA get away with making the change? |
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3 years ago
In case you are just joining this discussion, this is the explanation of the rule demonstrated in "The Move" video. |
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3 years ago
If you are looking for more information on this, visit: |
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3 years ago
The ICSA just changed this (for college sailing). They expect ISAF to deal with this sometime this spring, but didn't want college sailors to have to change mid season... |
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3 years ago
Sure there's a reason why 18.2b canot be turned on again. The part where it says that 18.2b "ceases to apply." This states point blank that once it is turned off it does not get turned on again and 18.1a is on all the time. As long as room CAN be given, then the "new" outside boat has to give it. |
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3 years ago
Where in the rule does it say that 18.2b cannot be switched on again at the same mark? I agree that 18 in general is on all the time and thus 18.2b can apply if conditions are met to which it can apply. If say 18.2b is on as the boats reach the zone and then turned off as one passes head to wind there seems no reason why 18.2b cannot be turned on again once the conditions for applying 18.2b are met.again which in my view is as soon as the trailing boat is on a new tack ie closehauled. The overlap is then instantaneous or not as the facts might show. If 18.2b can be switched off and thus 18.2a apply what logically is there to stop the reverse happening assumming the conditions for 18.2b are met? 18.2b overrides 18.2a. There is a game called called scissors, paper and stone. There is a similar circular argument between 18.2a b and c is there not? c overrides b (when its conditions are met) the rule then reverts to a which is then overriden by b (subject to its conditions) and so on. |
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3 years ago
Just because 18.2b is off does not mean it cannot be switched on again or off and then on..... ie there is no permanent switch off. Thus at the moment when the initial outside boat passes head to wind it is switched off but at the moment the boat under 13 gets to closehauled and now on a new tack, 18.2b is switched on again (because boat 1 has reached the zone) and if at that precise moment she has an inside overlap she may have mark room. In the video the tacking boat at the moment when it completes its tack does not appear to have an inside overlap.Hi Richard, I think it's important to be careful to use the specific language of the rule. 18.2(c) says that "if either boat passes head to wind ... rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply." You say that when the previously-clear astern boat reaches close hauled after tacking, 18.2(b) is switched on again because boat 1 has reached the zone. But both boats have been in the zone the whole time! Where in the rules does it say that 18.2(b) begins to apply again at this time? Why would it? Clearly, rule 18 has been on the whole time since the first boat entered the zone. 18.2(c) tells us that after the tack (that is, as soon as the tacking boat crosses head to wind), 18.2(b) ceases to apply. What changes that? I don't think it makes any difference whether there is an overlap at the time the tacking boat changes tack (crosses head to wind) or completes the tack (reaches close hauled). Remember, 18.2(b), and consequently the modifications thereof in D1.1, are turned off. I'm a little confused about what you mean when you say "There is the little difficulty that passing head to wind does not mean necessarily changing tacks - a luff and back will do." As soon as a boat passes head to wind, she has changed tacks. See: definition of "tack, starboard or port." So how can you pass head to wind without changing tacks? |
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3 years ago
Just because 18.2b is off does not mean it cannot be switched on again or off and then on..... ie there is no permanent switch off. Thus at the moment when the initial outside boat passes head to wind it is switched off but at the moment the boat under 13 gets to closehauled and now on a new tack, 18.2b is switched on again (because boat 1 has reached the zone) and if at that precise moment she has an inside overlap she may have mark room. In the video the tacking boat at the moment when it completes its tack does not appear to have an inside overlap. |
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3 years ago
Rule 18 no longer turns off the basic right of way rules as it did in the past, so they continue to apply as the boats round the mark regardless of which boat is allowed mark room. In this situation, when the boats are overlapped on starboard, heading away from the mark, Rule 11 applies and Rule 18.2(a). There is no need for Rule 18.2(b) here since the inside boat has the right of way and is allowed room by Rule 18.2(a). Rule 18.2(b) is only necessary when the inside boat, or boat that was inside, would otherwise have to keep clear were it not for the mark.Geoff: Interesting argument. I think we should start with the text of the rules: **** 18.2(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies. 18.2(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, or she later becomes clear ahead when another boat passes head to wind, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark- room. **** You assert that because a boat is afforded room by 18.2(a), therefore 18.2(b) isn't necessary and doesn't apply. I think we would agree please correct me if Im wrong that when both boats are luffing on starboard, both 18.2(a) and (b) if each applied would do the same thing: grant mark-room to the leeward boat. You argue that because of this, 18.2(b) isnt necessary and 18.2(a) alone applies. Isn't this arbitrary? Couldn't someone just as easily say that because 18.2(b) would grant room to the leeward boat, 18.2(a) isn't needed and therefore doesn't apply? Fortunately, the people who wrote rule 18 provided an answer for us; the answer is in the last clause of 18.2(a), which says that when either 18.2(a) or (b) could apply, (b) does and (a) does not. Moreover, I dont agree with your premise that because a rule isnt needed it doesnt apply. Perhaps it is easier to consider a simple example. Suppose, for example, that a boat is OCS and returning to the start on port tack. While doing so, she fails to keep clear of a starboard tack boat that has started correctly. Both rule 10 and rule 21.1 require the port boat to keep clear of the starboard boat. Since both rules reach the same outcome, if we applied your premise then one rule would apply and the other would not. Which one? How do we pick? I think the better argument is that both rules apply, and that the port boat in my hypo breaks both rule 10 and 21.1. The same would hold in the 18.2(a) and (b) case, except for the fact that the rules explicitly say that when (b) applies, (a) does not. |
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3 years ago
While you don't see, in this video, when the first boat enters the zone and how the boats are oriented I still don't think the boat that tacks is allowed room. It is a complicated situation with regard to how the rules are applied, but after looking more and more at this situation, one of the philosophical changes to rule 18 has bearing here. |
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3 years ago
what?!. i need to get learned. |
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3 years ago
hah sweet |
Its a good thing... Finding new loop holes is fun, but I do think this one was counter-productive, and surely against the spirit of the game. Kudos to those who pushed the ICSA to be proactive!