McIntyre Team Race/Single Flag Procedure

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Uploaded by bryan mcdonald | March 8, 2010

A technical discussion of the single flag protest procedure vs. the two flag system.

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10 comments

bryan mcdonald 2 years ago

2 flags, are you sesting potential improvements are a bad thing? Should we go back to the days before a two length zone around our marks where chaos could ensue at mark roundings?

2 flags no excuses 2 years ago

If a sailor messes up a roll tack (this happens at every event) should we change the rules on roll tacking as well so that you can not roll? The 2-flag system is simple; learn it, PRACTICE IT, do it. Dont put a child in a wheel chair because they fall down trying to walk. When an adult falls they are drunk and that is their own fault. When an elderly person falls put them in a wheel chair and send them home.

Single Flag Supporter 2 years ago

Obviously, whenever umpires are involved, their calls will have an effect on the end results of the race. I believe that under the two flag procedure, boats have the "luxury" of threatening with a protest, even though they might be the one infringing the rules. With the one flag system, there is no wiggle room. So, before you go about protesting a boat, you must be dead sure that you are right. On the flipside, if you are being protested, you also must know the rules, why spin if you don't think you have to. The single flag protest places a premium on knowing the playbook. Having a system in place that encourages sailors to know the rules in and out enhances the sport. And colin, this sport THRIVES on the weekend warriors.

bryan mcdonald 2 years ago

Thanks for the feedback Colin.

Again, last weekend, zero procedural errors for over 70 races. I've never seen that before.
I tried my best to not skew the presentation. Listen to Frank of UCI. He said he wanted to think about the two procedures before deciding which he liked better. If I wanted to skew things, why would I post Frank?
The USC guy came up to me out of the blue and said he really dug the new procedure (no scripting or anything...just walked up to me and said he thought it was a better system).
Sounds like your simplification is to keep the two flag system but not green flag if they don't give the protested boat enough time to spin. Interesting idea but still twice as many flags as single flag (and counter to what the Stanford sailor said when he stated he would just protest and get on with the sailing...in your simplification, he needs to wait a bit, throw up another hail and then keep on sailing).
How about this: use single flag and for all those people who want to STOP the umpires, after about 10 seconds they get to yell "NO UMPIRE" to signal they don't want an umpire call. This way it preserves the simplicity of the single flag and yet provides an avenue to NOT have an umpire call if that's what the protestor wants. Make sense?
I hope you know that I'm a fan of doing what sailors want to do. I am hopeful some events in the USA can trial this and decide on their own which system they prefer.

Colin 2 years ago

"Team Racer" I think you missed my point entirely. How do you get that out of what I wrote?

Bryan
Under the single flag system, if you don't raise your hand at the first reasonable opportunity you can never get an umpire call later. This could be considered a procedural error. A shorter procedure isn't necessarily a simpler one.
You present this "simple" one-line procedure that leaves out the whole part about what rules are protestable such as rules of part 2, etc. You included them with the existing version when you did the screen by screen comparison. Likewise, your one-liner does not talk about identifying a sail number. In a three boat pile up, who are you protesting, and how will the umpire know who you are portesting? Better yet, you leave all of number 4 out of your one-liner. So there is no official way for an umpire to even fly a flag as your system doesn't say what colors an umpire can fly and what they
mean. Under your system there is not a verbal hail which is a thing I think all competitor want. I think you presented it in a slightly skewed way.
Here's an idea. If the protestor flies a yellow flag with "umpire" too quickly after the red with "protest", the protest is still valid but the umpires will give the other competitor a little bit of time to start a spin before they make a call. This way you keep the intent of the existing rules, with a slight buffer in procedure.

Team Racer 2 years ago

The point that Colin makes is an extremely important one and the one flag system would remove a tactical option from the game. Consider the following scenario under the two flag system. It's a close race on the final leg, opponents are in 1,2, and a teammate and I are in a close 3,4. I am on starboard tack and I duck the 2 boat that is on port and they tack to starboard to slam-dunk me. I think that they began the tack as I was ducking and that I had to make a course alteration to avoid them. I protest immediately but in the few seconds that I am waiting for them to spin I realize that I am going to be able to live to leeward of them and shortly be able to make them tack off into a position where my teammate will be able to pick them. This fact is not at all obvious to their teammate who is loose covering my teammate on the other side of the course and who thinks his teammate has a lock on me and therefore the 1,2. I decide not to go to the umpire, the 2 boat doesn't spin and so distance up the course is eaten up. By the time I pinch the 2 boat off and my teammate picks him up it is too close to the finish for 1 to do anything. Now consider the scenario under the 1 flag system. I protest, and the umpire makes the 2 boat spin. It is now immediately apparent to their boat in 1 that they no longer have the 1,2 and he immediately responds and pins my teammate.resulting in a whole different game because of the extra distance left on the course.

bryan mcdonald 2 years ago

Colin, thank you for your input!

I've never been to a tr'ing event where there was not a single foul up on the flag procedure. The McIntyre, with the single flag procedure, did not have a single foul up for over 70 races.
I've never had sailors come up to me after a skippers meeting and say "Wow, that protest procedure sounds way simpler". That happened last weekend too.
If you can sest a simpler method, I welcome your input. I agree that the two flag system is not hard but, per Bruce Hebbert from the UK, there were still foul ups even at the last Hinman (and those were all good teams, not teams that just popped into the game for a weekend). That's a bummer in my book.
Single flag does preserve the option of not going to the umpire. If a competitor does not want to go to the umpire, they simply don't raise their hand in college sailing. Can you please tell me if that works for you?
Thank you, bry

Colin Merrick 2 years ago

If the procedure is truly the problem, then correct the procedure but not the intent of the 2 flag system. The single flag system changes both: you have to go to the umpire just to protest a boat. Let's figure out how to simplify the system but still protest a boat with the later option to go the umpire or NOT go to the umpire. The single flag system does not have this option. All the sailors I know like the idea of having the option after a boat does not spin to bring in the umpire or NOT.

The two flag system is not hard. I don't see what the big deal is. My sailing partner and I have never messed up the two flag system procedure. On the flip side, I have seen some people who pop into the game for a weekend screw it up and for their sake I do see a need to simply the system, but not at the cost of the losing the option to bring in or NOT bring in an umpire decision once it is clear the boat is not spinning.
I would recommend that procedure gurus who came up with or support the single flag system to be a little more creative and go back to the drawing board and come back with a new system that is both simpler and still conceptually the same as the two flag system even though it require an additional alteration of 61.1(a) in appendix D.
Just to reiterate I think the option to go to the umpires or not once a boat does not spin outweighs the need to simplify an already easy two flag system. But with that said if there is an option which is procedurally easier and would work in all sailing conditions and is conceptually identical to the two flag system I would support it.

bryan mcdonald 2 years ago

The below were the instructions given to the umpires and posted to the notice board for competitors to review:

-you see a protest / open hand.
-if the protested boat spins, incident closed.
-if the protested boat doesn't spin, wait until you are are certain she will not take a penalty (until the point where she could no longer take a prompt and therefore valid penalty; about 10 seconds unless there is a lot of traffic). then penalize any boat that has broken a rule and not taken a penalty with a red flag, or display a yellow indicating that you will hold a hearing ashore.

Observer 2 years ago

1. Used the system many times in practice, not all sailors seem to like it...one downside is that it leads to more calls and the rules becoming a sword rather than a shield. The primary reason for this is that you can hail protest then just get on with racing so, if there is a chance that you might win an "iffy" port/starboard and you only have to make one hail...what's the downside??
2.So there was NO megative feedback?
3. I assume since it is now up to the judges to determine when they have waited long enough for a boat to acknowledge that they were taking a penalty that this amount of time was standardized, and therefore announced at the beginning? If so, how long was it? If not, because different situations warrant different reaction times, (in the middle of a gybe in 20 knots verses 5 knots) are you confident tht the judges know when sufficient time has passed verses the sailor who is protestting who is sailing the boat in the actual conditons on the race course and not watching from a powerboat? If the latter was the case, what guidelines were given?

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