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You're Out of Here! Coaches ejected from college sailing regattas

Chris Love 1 year ago

It's not the least bit uncommon for a baseball umpire to stand toe to toe with a manager, mask in hand, shoulders relaxed, stoically taking an earful of harsh words and a fateful of spit as the coach reams him out for a call he doesn't like, only to burst to life, dramatically point to the dugout and yell "you're out of here!" It's generally part of the ceremony for the coach to kick some dirt, insult the man's mother, saunter back down the steps to the boos or cheers (or both) from the crowd and hand off the clipboard to the assistant manager so the game may continue.  Not uncommon at all--in fact, it's one of the sport's great traditions.
 
But compared to the barbaric sport of flying balls and dirty mitts, sailing is a gentleman's game.  Coaches and sailing officials would never interact in such a crude and brutish way.  A combination of complicated litigation and cocktails at the bar is enough to solve our differences.  No need to shout or make a scene by kicking someone off the water, right?
 
Well, in collegiate sailing this weekend, a scene was made.  Two coaches were asked to leave and/or not return on the second day, per a sailing instruction that has been on the books at MIT for some time.  It basically says that if a coach says something negative to an umpire, they may be banned from the premises for the rest of the regatta. This was the first time it has been utilized.  Without getting into the unpleasant business of who said what to whom (and I honestly don't know as I wasn't there myself) I think this incident opens up an interesting and potentially positive discussion for collegiate sailing.  Is this a good rule and should it be implemented more widely?  Is it necessary and is it effective in its goal to protect ICSA's staff of volunteer umpires?
 
You can't argue the fact that being a sports official is hard--no matter what you're going to piss people off, even if you're right all the time (which isn't possible either given the limitations of powerboats as vantage points for the complex game of team racing.)  There should be some level of shielding for these kind souls who give their weekends away accepting this thankless job for no compensation.  But is removing a coach a necessary measure in our sport?  What must someone do to need to be removed from the premises?
 
Have your say, but please don't turn this thread into a firing range on those who were involved in this particular incident.

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Comments27 comments

Bob 12 months ago

Did anyone else think that the umpires at Nationals were too quick to hand out rule 42 flags? It potentially cost Hawaii a spot at women's finals and determined a bunch of team races. And most of these umps didn't ever do college sailing. That just seems wrong.

No Issues with Ejections 1 year ago

I'm not sure any coach in the country is upset with the ejections. If they are deserved then eject them. Throwing around F-Bombs at an umpire, race official, competitor, or another coach is uncalled for. Anyone see what happened to Kobe Bryant when he threw a derogatory slur at the ref the other night...yea...$100K fine. Give it a warning I agree with, but if you cross the line, your out, competitors and coaches. You can disagree with calls and 99% of umpires are completely fine explaining why they made a particular call after the race. But if your asking about it, you can do it appropriately. BTW, umpires can be tossed too? Probably at the discretion of the PRO/Ch-Ump?

SailFast 1 year ago

I think ejecting a college coach just like a Baseball coach is well within the rules of the sport. I would to see it expanded to competitors being ejected as well for standing up in their boats and using profanity at umpires during Team or Match Racing regatta's.

There should be a line in the sand to improve our sport. 1. You get 30 seconds to make your case with an umpire. 2. No Profanity.. cross that line and get ejected from the event.

bystander 1 year ago

I think it was a bit absurd that both coaches were asked to leave the premises. I can't be for sure, but i think that set of sailing instructions is the only one in the country that includes the "decorum" section. We agree it is good to treat our umpires with respect and we appreciate the difficult job that they undertake. But throwing coaches off premises? A bit extreme. It might be better to take a page from a basketball or soccer referee and give a warning or a warning card to the coach when he/she is acting out of line.

imperfect umpire 1 year ago

I have umpired at everything from the Congressional Cup and the Hinman all the way to Opti team racing. Umpires work and talk endlessly among themselves about complex tactical situations, rule interpretations, better positioning, etc. I have yet to meet an umpire that was not concerned about being as good as he/she can be. WE usually start at 8 am and go to 6 or 7 at night, NO BREAKS, no pay, and often horrible sandwiches. Fun....? Sometimes. Yes, we make mistakes, and 90% of them are lived up to. It would sure be a lot more fun to be an umpire if the competitors and coaches lived up to their mistakes 90% of the time. When umpires accept zero tolerance for abusive behavior it is no more than the competitor or coach expects of the Umpire.

Phil Stemler 1 year ago

In theory it makes sense to give umpires the discretion whether to toss coaches. However, as umpires receive greater discretion, they should also have greater accountability to the competitors, coaches, and the sport. I do not think the analogy to professional sports is correct, since those referees, who have a great deal of power, are also strictly regulated and get performance reviews from their respective sports' governing bodies.

While college sailing is a way from professional baseball, for example, I believe three reforms are needed to provide a meaningful check against umpires using and abusing their discretion. Since ultimately college regattas are a training ground for team racing umpires, everyone has an interest in how college umpires are regulated.

1. Hold a "rules compendium" where all parties in interest, including but not limited to sailors, coaches, and umpires, decide how discretionary calls will be made for the year. Discretionary calls would include but not be limited to black flag redress, extra penalty turns, and tossing coaches.

2. For major intersectionals, require that each team select an umpire. Require that the umpires come from a pre-certified overall pool so that teams can't bring in randos. This way, the host team is not supplying all the umpires. Make it so that a given team can't select the same umpire every regatta.

3. Set up a performance review system so that parties in interest can rate umpires' performance relative to the standards established in Sec. 1. Set up a process to decertify umpires that do not follow the standards all parties agreed upon. This will ensure the pool of certified umpires conforms to standard.

These rules would probably entail higher cost for using umpires. However, if we're going to be granting umpires greater discretion to eject sailors and coaches, and, with other discretionary calls, change how the game is played, the greater cost is justified.

Anonymous Coward 1 year ago

Just so it doesn't seem as if the events at that one regatta are the norm in college sailing, I want to report that I've just finished umpiring at four top-level events in the Mid Atlantic Collegiate Sailing Association (MAISA), including last weekend's Prosser Trophy, which was a qualifier for the Nationals. All of these events were fiercely contested. I did receive lots of comments from both competitors and coaches, some of them questioning my calls after races. Every single one of those conversations ended with the competitor or coach saying "Thank you." One example: I and my fellow ump made a call in the last race of one regatta, and the boat we penalized called us over after the finish. We had other business to attend to, but eventually came alongside the boat on her way back to the dock. As I started my explanation of the call, the competitor interrupted me, saying "No, no, I have no question about the call. I just wanted to thank you for doing this."

There are lots of things that keep me doing this stuff, including the opportunity to watch some of the world's best sailing and boat-handling at close quarters. But comments like that are by themselves reason enough to come back.

Anonymist 1 year ago

I do want to mention that one of the coaches who was "asked not to be on the premises" for Sunday did something very admirable. He spent his Sunday himself as an Umpire/Judge at another Team Race Intersectional in the district, giving back to the sport, as well as putting himself in the position which he was penalized for criticizing. His unique way of placing an additional self-punishment was good for him, the sport, his team, and the teams at the other event he then helped officiate.

Charles Darley 1 year ago

I'm a British umpire so I wasn't there and do not know the people. Competitors being impolite to umpires can be cut some slack. We have all got agitated sailing. Coaches being a nuisance should be stamped on because they do not need to be there.

I am sure there is sometimes bad umpiring and I see how it could get out of hand. It would be good to have a mechanism for the criticism to get back. De-briefs are all very well but competitors will fear alienating umpires and being picked on.

Anonymous Coward 1 year ago

Just so it doesn't seem as if the events at that one regatta are the norm in college sailing, I want to report that I've just finished umpiring at four top-level events in the Mid Atlantic Collegiate Sailing Association (MAISA), including last weekend's Prosser Trophy, which was a qualifier for the Nationals. All of these events were fiercely contested. I did receive lots of comments from both competitors and coaches, some of them questioning my calls after races. Every single one of those conversations ended with the competitor or coach saying "Thank you." One example: I and my fellow ump made a call in the last race of one regatta, and the boat we penalized called us over after the finish. We had other business to attend to, but eventually came alongside the boat on her way back to the dock. As I started my explanation of the call, the competitor interrupted me, saying "No, no, I have no question about the call. I just wanted to thank you for doing this."

There are lots of things that keep me doing this stuff, including the opportunity to watch some of the world's best sailing and boat-handling at close quarters. But comments like that are by themselves enough reason enough to come back.

Umpires make the calls 1 year ago

Umpires good, bad or indifferent make team racing and match racing better by making calls on the water. Having a hearing after the race wastes time and isn't fun. And, more important, the outcome of the hearing is not likely to be any more accurate than a call made immediately following the incident.

If we accept that umpires make the game better than they need the full authority to do what they believe is needed within the rules - in this case by ejecting coaches. By empowering umpires they will improve their skills over time. By empowering umpires, more people will want to help officiate our game improving the pool of available umpires. Allowing coaches or sailors to question umpire calls will undermine the role so important to making our game more fun.

The Boom 1 year ago

This rule should stay and be used more widely. The bigger challenge is having the stones to enforce it. This had to be super embarrassing for the coaches involved and the kids that they are out there coaching. It doesn't matter if your having a bad sailing day and your coach pulls you for the "freshmen" or if you're having a bad coaching day and you're told to go hike the Freedom Trail, it feels crappy to be pulled. Not a good look. I'm sure that no one feels good about this.

Maybe there needs to be a better avenue for coaches to provide feedback to umpires and regatta officials without having the umpires feeling attacked by the coaching panel. Match racing events have pretty cool de-briefs after racing. Why not college sailing.

A Protest Committee member 1 year ago

I helped out the umpires not long ago at a major competition by doing on-the-water flunky work, and got to see what umpiring involves. Thought it interesting enough to start on the path of getting certified. Doing the job is tough work, requiring an eagle eye, for some of the competitors were clearly trying it on. In my day as a collegiate sailor, fouling resulted in a DSQ, not just a few turns, and the sport relied on a competitor's honesty. Now competitors have it easier, and think that pushing the envelope advances the sport. Any coach who interferes SHOULD be called out and sent off. And a team that can't take it like grown-ups should be in a different sport.

Responsibility 1 year ago

Yep, just that simple. You made it to the Nationals. It is time to grow up and sail yourself instead of having a coach hold your hand. All coaches should be off the water and put of contact with competitors "dock to dock". Enough of this coaching nonsense.

First Person Account 1 year ago

To clarify, the coaches in question were complaining about something the umpires had no control over (poor sailing conditions which resulted in two very poor team races). I think their complaints were justified - the races were pretty absurd - but it is too bad they weren't directed at the right people. And there certainly is something to be said about being civil.
Either way, I really appreciate the time the judges put in, and the races were significantly better with them in attendance.
Thank you judges.

Witness 1 year ago

If the umpire(s) in question would not own up to an obvious mistake, well they may deserve a little bit of pressure, but there is adn always should be a line that should not be crossed.
One of these incidents had absolutely nothing to do with a decision about racing rules on the water.

The other, yelling about a call from the dock (20 ft from umpires making the call) during a complex mark rounding.

dkstorrs 1 year ago

Match race umpires are typically not paid for their work, but spend their own money to become certified (trained) and get to regattas to serve the competitors. Umpires are especially close to the boats on whom they call penalties. Even though they typically have a far better view of the situation than either race boat, it is common for the penalized boat to angrily criticize the umpires. To counteract this trend, a new practice is to add to the SIs under "Code of Conduct," instructions that competitors who make "excessive attempts to verbally influence umpire decisions" or "repetitive or ongoing objection to an umpire decision" or "abuse of umpires before or after a decision" are all grounds for an umpire-initiated penalty. Umpire-initiated penalties are not appealable, so the screamers just dig themselves into a deeper hole if they insult the umpires too much. If you get a penalty, suck it up and move on.

stu johnstone 1 year ago

if it had anything to do with Franny ensuring that the corinthian elements of the sport were being addressed with some degree of decorum, then I'm surprised it's even an issue? Having known Fran since our college years at Tufts sailing on the Jumbo Sailing Team, it takes an extraordinary circumstance to ruffle Fran's feathers--- e.g. it would've been OTT on steriods to have MIT's umps misbehaving inappropriately? Had that been the case or not, why didn't they throw the coach(es) out of the sport of sailing? Throw them in the "penalty box" for a few hundred years (or be umpires themselves for 1,000 races?). Don't you think? Tufts Friis Trophy and MIT regatta notwithstanding. Hearsay may be hearsay. Would you be arguing with a "smart" policeman or a "dumb" policeman when you were pulled over for doing a 100 mph?? NOT. Learn how to sail first. Once you do that, then learn how to go fast. If you even know how to do that, then learn the rules. Then shut up and sail fast. If you can't, you ain't sailing. :)

An Umpire 1 year ago

I umpire quite a bit, from local match race, to collegiate team race, and even a bit on the "World Tour". I'm a volunteer. But I treat my umpiring as if I were a professional. However, that doesn't mean that a coach or competitor can get up in my grill and scream at me, say nasty things, etc. We all expect to be treated with some decorum. I'd proabably be the last guy to toss someone out, but if they go too far... And these folks may well be lucky, Rule 2 is int he book for this type of problem...

Our sport has worked tirelessly to be more "gentlemanly" (if I am allowed to use that word in these gender neutral times). And I think that is something that allows all of us to play together and have fun. Because that iswhat we are supposed to be having here, isn't it?

I've made my share of mistakes, and always owned up to them. If the umpire(s) in question would not own up to an obvious mistake, well they may deserve a little bit of pressure, but there is adn always should be a line that should not be crossed.

Dwight Gertz 1 year ago

An intercollegiate regatta can be an intimate setting with coaches, sailors, the race committee, umpires, protest committee members, and fans all mingling informally. This puts a burden on everyone to behave well--and they usually do with everyone ready to help make sure that the event is successful. I was the race committee chair (1970's speak for PRO) at a regional championship four decades ago. A coach was lobbying us to shorten the race course in the hope that an announced 10 race day for each division might possibly become a 20 race day (which would coincidentally give that coach's team a chance to dig themselves out of a deep hole in the standings). He was so forceful that I eventually had to call the graduate secretary of the regional association and ask him to put the coach in his place.

Bruce 1 year ago

College Water Polo Coaches can get a little excited when a "bad" call is made. And if they cross the line...WHAM! YELLOW CARD! Cut it out! If they keep up the bugging the referee, WHAM! RED CARD! You are outta here!

Its part of the game. What's the big deal?




i hate protests 1 year ago

umpires let it get settled on the water. they make all the easy calls correctly, can see what someone commits a professional foul, and are useful for when someone actually luffs someone too hard etc or something that wouldn't stand in the protest room. when you put yourselves in their shoes they almost always made the more logical call based on the simplest rule. The biggest problem is they are volunteering (which is nice because it means they love the sport and are generally therefore quite experienced), but they aren't going to volunteer to get yelled at. Now if they made a profession out of umpiring I would say yell away, but thats never going to be the case. That said, not every single umpire out there has team raced at a high level or knows exactly what's going on enough to make quick, accurate, complicated rule situation calls. And It's hard to make the testing process to become an umpire more difficult as they aren't getting paid and there aren't many of them. There's no easy solution or perfect answer and it stinks, but its sailing.
I'm surprised coaches would yell at the umpires because, surprise-surprise, there aren't that many of them and they will remember you. So as of now its in no one's best interest to yell at an umpire. Yell at yourself for leaving it in their hands (you were probably playing catch-up if you needed an ump call to win).

Agreed 1 year ago

But no one is disputing the instructions... just that there is probably a reason that the coaches were upset. When was the last time a coach had to be ejected because they were upset? Clearly something was going on

Sailing Instruction 1 year ago

"All competitors shall be responsible for their coaches' behavior and coaches shall be responsible for their competitors' behavior. Any negative commentary by a competitor or a coach towards the volunteer and professional judges or race management team will result in immediate ejection of the coach from the venue without a hearing. The PRO or any judge will be empowered to make this decision. If the ejection occurs after sailing it will take effect for the entire next day of competition at both venues."

Jeff Dusek 1 year ago

I was not at MIT on Saturday, but have umpired with, and have tremendous respect for each of the umpires at the event. Please keep this discussion about improving college sailing for everyone involved.

Clarify 1 year ago

What exactly were the umpires doing wrong? I'm confused. Part of the deal with umpiring is that there will be a fair number of mistakes made, but at least situations are closed on the water (for the most part). It's fairly unthinkable to have a legitimate TR event these days without umps- the old days of spending hours after sailing dealing with protests are something we don't want to return to.

Umpires 1 year ago

I would say for the most part Umpires are usually a good addition to a regatta, especially a team race. I was at Tufts on Saturday, but from what I hear the umpires at MIT this past weekend should have been the one's getting kicked off the water and I heard that from several teams. Seems as though the regatta would have been better off without the umpires.

Sailing has its weaknesses, particularly with some competitors following the rules. It's a shame that umpires could ever make the situation worse.

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