The Best Boat for College Sailing

Chris Love 3 years ago

The spring college season is fast approaching and it's time to open up the age-old debate: what is the right boat for college sailing? Right now there are basically three boats: the Flying Junior, the 420 and the Lark. Okay, you can include the tech dinghy in there too.

Which of these is most appropriate? What other boats could be used for college instead? OR, design your own superboat, one that would be the ultimate college dinghy, but is not currently produced.
Thanks to Tom Charpentier for this topic idea.

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17 comments

420 sailor 3 years ago

I think that the C420 would be ideal if the foot of the sail wasnt tracked and the roach was opened up. The durable hull and rig take a beating, unlike V15s, and the desighn of the boat is much simpler and less clutered than a FJ or Firefly. By the way, Wich is bigger, a firefly or FJ?

Dan Barlow 3 years ago

It's a doublehanded boat. Check it out.

Tom Charpentier 3 years ago

Mean-

Good points, I didn't realize the ideal for a V15 was still relatively low. I realize that college sailing in its current form isn't perfect and excludes a lot of average-size male crews or heavy skippers, but I would still argue switching to men/women sailing would do more harm than good. The male boat would most likely be optimized to heavier sailors, be it a V15 or something else, meaning teams would need to have at least a practice fleet of both kinds of boats. Either that or you'd just have the ideal weight problem in reverse with lighter girls trying to hold down a more powerful boat. Plus, coed sailing is why many mid-level teams like Bates who rarely field a woman's team can be competitive and why many entry-level teams can even participate. Better competition and more boats on the line cannot be a bad thing.

That's also a good thought about venues, I'll admit I had overlooked course size. Like I said, venue is always a consideration, but I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that I think we can all agree that certain venues (particularly lighter NEISA ones) beg for a boat with a little more spunk than an FJ or a 420, and since the Lark is something like what we're talking about but is too expensive and fragile for most teams I think what I propose might perhaps fit the bill.

Jen 3 years ago

The Firefly. Popular in England and Ireland. Used to be the Olympic Singlehanded boat before the Finn

So is it a singlehanded boat or a doublehanded boat?

MeanD 3 years ago

Tom, I disagree with your reasoning. Sailing is largely coed because of small ideal weights. You're argument with the v15 is not sound either, as v15s too have small ideal weights. Two men would need average 150 lbs to sail together, which is more reasonable than an FJ, but 150 is still on the lighter side. At 175 lbs one will have a hard time finding a male crew small enough to sail with, even in a vanguard.

College Sailing does not exclude females,
Man Skippers > Female Skippers, BUT! Man Crews < Female Crews,
Most importantly, Man Skippers + Man Crews < Female Skippers + Female Crews
At least at the top level, women out number men.

If you want to talk about excluding sailors, let's talk about all the larger males that are excluded because we sail boy/girl boats.

Another thought: bigger boats usually go faster and thus require larger courses. I cannot imagine sailing v15s on the Charles River (esp BU) or Mystic Lake. Maybe we should flood the backyard and compete in CC Frosties. :P

3 years ago

The Firefly. Popular in England and Ireland. Used to be the Olympic Singlehanded boat before the Finn

Tom is the man 3 years ago

Thank you Tom for your in depth analysis....YOU THE MAN!

Tom Charpentier 3 years ago

Venue's always a consideration. C420s work fine in open water with reliable breeze like Narragansett Bay. Put a fleet of them on Mystic Lake and you're in a world of hurt. Larks are great for places like Mystic Lake and Quahog Bay with flat water and light-medium wind. They probably have too much power to sail in consistently heavy venues (to say nothing of durability). Yale has a reasonably shallow venue, hence the emphasis on mast strength when they ordered the C420 in the mid-70s. That said, tall, tapered masts can't be all bad in shallow water. MIT and Harvard both used to use Parker Larks on the Charles. Harvard's fleet seemed to have some longevity - I would be curious how many masts they had to replace over time.

I can't find exact mast height numbers on the C420, but I do know its mainsail area is 7.4 sq. meters as opposed to 10.25 sq. meters for the I420. I can't see how you can add over 1/3 more sail area without a larger rig. The ideal weight is also listed as 240-320 lbs for an I420 (that's with a trap). 120-160 lbs per person sounds about spot on for college - coed and women.

I would strongly oppose changing coed sailing to men-only. If women weren't suited to being competitive enough at the coed level then it would have essentially become a mens' only division a long time ago. You could make the argument that the small ideal weights of most college boats encourage teams to use female crews, but even in V15s there are mixed teams. Plus not every team has enough girls to field a competitive woman's program, so you'd be excluding the female skippers who sail with male crew or the all-women pairs who sail coed regattas (many of whom are highly competitive). Other sports are split into divisions by gender to increase opportunities for participation. I think this would exclude many people, mostly women, if it were applied to sailing.

Craig Thompson 3 years ago

thank you anonymous poster for making my day

Manfuel 3 years ago

We all know Craig loves a good meat tobogan...
But sailing coed is fun. Who cares what outsiders think?

Craig Thompson 3 years ago

It is my understanding that the C420 rig is the same length as the I420. The difference is that the rig is a bomb-proof Dwyer section that is not tapered and has external halyards. You run into issues with tapered masts especially where its is shallow and rigs bottom out when boats capsize/turtle. It comes back to the durability issue. Tufts does not have this problem as Mystic Lake is very deep.

The venues(particularly in NEISA) are the major limiting factor in terms of sailing man-sized boats instead of boy/girl-sized boats, like the ones currently in use. URI, for example, has serious depth limitations that make the FJ the only viable option.

If venues weren't an obstacle I would propose Mens Dinghys in V15s, and Womens Dinghys in FJs. Loose the coed thing because it seems very weird from an outsiders perspective. Think of all the other legitimate college sports have coed competition. None.

Tom Charpentier 3 years ago

Heh, thanks for using my idea Chris.

I'm a lighter than average guy and I usually sail with a light crew so I personally love the FJ. That said I can understand why it's not always the best ride for the average size skipper and all but the smallest crew at most college (especially NEISA) venues, hence boats like the Rondar (Bowdoin and Tufts) Lark and V15 have been experimented with. I don't necessarily think upgrading the size of the college boat will hurt too many teams, since practically every co-ed team sails over ideal weight for an FJ or C420 anyway.

I've been thinking that the best solution might be to drop an I420 rig into a C420 hull. The reason the C420 doesn't work well for anything other than medium-heavy air, open water venues is that it is underpowered for its weight. The I420 is a much better boat for light breeze, but its lighter hull gives it the same durability problems the Lark and V15 have. That's why Yale invented the C420 in the first place, but I think it was a mistake to chop the rig down. Put the taller rig back in, give it a big roachy main with a non-overlapping jib, and I think you'll have a boat with similar characteristics to the Lark without the durability issues. Plus you're not importing the whole boat from the UK which adds 1000s to the price tag. This would make a boat with enough horsepower to handle light air or heavier crews and is put together using mostly off-the-shelf parts (heck, you could even market a "conversion kit" to existing fleets).

techno 3 years ago

Tech's are like disco. They were only cool for a couple years in the late 70's

Quiet Thinker 3 years ago

The v-15 didnt take for several reasons. It doesnt fit into most college sailing sites' infrastructures very well. It's bigger requiring more dock/storage space. Also, for many colder venues, having a thwart for crews to sit is highly desirable. The student body at Kings Point is noticeably larger in their physical size, mainly due to the very small number of women at the academy, let alone mention women sailors. I'm just guessing but I would say they decided after nobody else showed any interest at aquiring some v-15s they decided that in order to better prepare themselves for qualifiers and national championships they should stick to the status quo.

Speaking of Durable 3 years ago

Speaking of durable, why no love for the tech dinghies? Now, they're only at MIT, but there used to be a few fleets around. I'm not saying they should be the only boats in ICSA, but they are a great boat for lower tier regattas, C divisions at intersectionals, and anytime you want to have a singlehand regatta without stocking a fleet of lasers or asking people to bring their own.

Nothing against V15's, but I agree with Carson, those things are like battering rams. Don't underplay the importance of the bumper-boat quality required for a college program.

Carson Turowski 3 years ago

Kings Point had a fleet of Vanguard 15's. Does anyone know what happenned to them or what they thought of them? While the V15 fits a better weight range, The FJ and 420 have lasted so long because of their durability.

I agree with The Myth, that the V15 would make good college boat. Finally! No Bailing! But then you have to look at maitenance required for their upkeep.

the myth 3 years ago

I think the v15 would make a good college boat. I like the maneuverability of the FJ, but you need to find a crew that weighs around a buck to make it fast. With a v15 you can have a bigger crew.