To confirm... said: “Matt, can you please clarify:
1) Your explanation in this video is confirmed by ISAF's ruling, right?
2) Does the ICSA decision to eliminate this "loop hole" stand?
Also, 3) For call 2009/004 (windward mark), what if after a close duck by X, X passes through head to wind overlapped (and inside) of A? Is X now entitled to room by A or not?
Thanks.”
1) Yes, this is in line with what I explain in the video. However, remember that this move doesn't apply at a windward mark (i.e., a mark that ends a beat to windward).
2) The ICSA rule is not affected; this call would not apply in college sailing.
3) Yes, that boat would have room.
Matt, can you please clarify:
1) Your explanation in this video is confirmed by ISAF's ruling, right?
2) Does the ICSA decision to eliminate this "loop hole" stand?
Also, 3) For call 2009/004 (windward mark), what if after a close duck by X, X passes through head to wind overlapped (and inside) of A? Is X now entitled to room by A or not?
Thanks.
That's a great point, I hadn't thought about how this move would apply at mark 4.
I agree with you that, to pull it off at mark 3, you would need some very fancy boat handling. In US college sailing, the main team racing boat is the FJ, which is slow and very maneuverable. So I think it might work in these boats; but I guess we'll have to wait 'till the spring to find out. Unfortunately, in college sailing, there is no second reach as there is no mark 4; you go right from mark 3 to the finish. But in non-college racing, I think this could be very valuable at mark 4.
Also your point about 18.2(e) is important for everyone to remember as well. As I mentioned in my video, the previously clear ahead boat doesn't have to give room if they can't give room from the time the overlap was created. This is a potential defense against the move.
Best for 2009!
Matt
Hi Matt,
Dave Perry sent me this link. It is really good trick! I think this can be more efficient at the end of the second reach on a digital N course. In your situation the D boat have to make a full turn and probably gets an overlap from clear astern (rule 18.2e says that D is not entitle to room if A is unable to give room.
In the situation showed here http://www.regras.com.br/cms/images/stories/artigos/macete_fim_seg_traves_N_digital.gif Blue has only to pass head to wind and ask for room at position 4. The unable to give is not valid because the overlap was estabelished when be passes head to wind from position 3 to 4. This new overlap was not obtained from clear astern, so there is no 18.2(e)
Happy 2009!
Ricardo from Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
An interesting take on it.
Does 18.2(b) apply when the windward boat tacks? I think it does. Clearly, 18.2(b) applies when the first boat enters the zone clear ahead; it requires the boat clear astern to thereafter give the first boat mark-room. When does 18.2(b) stop applying, and why?
Furthermore, if 18.2(b) didn't apply before the time that windward tacks, what is to stop her just sailing inside the other boat, establishing an overlap, and getting room (without tacking)? 18.2(b) serves an important purpose here!
I can't see any reason why, up until the moment the windward boat tacks, 18.2(b) wouldn't apply. You wrote "18.2(b) seem to deal with situations that have the boat allowed room losing the position that would give her that room." That is true, but it also "deals with" other situations too. Again, there is a specific turn-off clause for 18.2(b) (contained in 18.2(c)) but until that is triggered by the tack, I can't see why 18.2(b) would not apply.
I think I am like many who think this doesn't seem right. I have been looking at this scenario and have a question...
-Does rule 18.2(b) apply between the boats when the windward boat tacks?
If rule 18.2(b) doesn't apply at that moment, then it can't be turned off by the tack of the windward boat (rule 18.2(c)) and would then apply when the boats are again overlapped later.
The phrase that is hanging me up is the last part of 18.2(a) which says, "unless rule 18.2(b) applies." I think we all assume that it would always apply, but I'm not sure it does. 18.2(b) seem to deal with situations that have the boat allowed room losing the position that would give her that room. For example, if the clear ahead boat was no longer clear ahead and the clear astern boat became overlapped on the inside, or if the inside boat became clear astern and then overlapped again. In the situation in the video rule 18.2(a) would apply and we would never have the need to go to 18.2(b) until the boat that tacked became clear astern.
This idea is supported by rule D1.1(b) which seems to address this same situation in rule 18.2(b). There is really no reason to make the change in rule D1.1(b) unless the tack has no impact on 18.2(b) in the first place. You had the right idea Val!
Since rule 18.2(b) doesn't turn on until the outside boat becomes clear aster, after her tack, it can't be turned off by rule 18.2(c). So, when the overlap is re-established rule 18.2(b) would then apply (for the first time) and we would have to go to the history of the overlap in a fleet race and rule D1.1(b) would apply in a team race making the original inside boat the one who is entitled to mark room.
Anonymous Coward said: “MK wrote:
A good question. I don't think that 18.3 would be activated. There are three conditions for 18.3 to turn off 18.2
1) 2 boats approaching mark
2) 1 of them changes tack, and
3) as a result, is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark
I don't think the third condition is met, because even though one boat passes head to wind (see rule 13), the other boat is not fetching the mark at the time.
Fetching is now (not under the old rules) a defined term. The definition of fetching is "A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to
windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack."
The other boat cannot both pass to windward of the mark AND leave it on the required side, since in order to leave it on the required side she would have to pass to leeward of it. In other words, I don't think that fetching (and therefore 18.3) applies at a leeward mark.”
18.3 doesn't apply simply because the two boats were NOT approaching the mark on opposite tacks. They approached the mark on the same tack, one tacked and was no longer "approaching the mark". Also, the tack must occur after they are on opposite tacks. In this case the boat tacked, creating the opposite tack situation that is a pre-requisite for rule 18.3 and not tack occurred once that was the case.
I think the "however" at the start of the second sentence of 18.2(c) is key. It emphasizes an exception to what has just been stated.
You're right that the first sentence of 18.2(c) stays active. However, consider the first clause: "When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b)"... If 18.2(b) "ceases to apply", a boat cannot be required to give room by 18.2(b)... There is a good reason why the drafters of 18.2(c) included the word "however".
The change to 18.2(b) in Appendix D isn't always turned off; just in the situation where 18.2(b) is turned off because one of the boats crossed head-to-wind (per 18.2(c)). Also, remember that the change from Appendix D is the same as in the old rules, whereas 18.2(c) has changed.
I think the change from Appendix D can still make a difference. The first sentence of 18.2 C is
When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins.
This part is still active when 18.2(b) is turned off, and because the boat that initially had room still meets the requirements to have room under 18.2(b) they still will always have room under this first sentence of 18.2(c). It would be silly for the authors of the rules to make a rule in Appendix D that is turned off whenever it applies and this is how it can still be used.
A good question. I don't think that 18.3 would be activated. There are three conditions for 18.3 to turn off 18.2
1) 2 boats approaching mark
2) 1 of them changes tack, and
3) as a result, is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark
I don't think the third condition is met, because even though one boat passes head to wind (see rule 13), the other boat is not fetching the mark at the time.
Fetching is now (not under the old rules) a defined term. The definition of fetching is "A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to
windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack."
The other boat cannot both pass to windward of the mark AND leave it on the required side, since in order to leave it on the required side she would have to pass to leeward of it. In other words, I don't think that fetching (and therefore 18.3) applies at a leeward mark.
18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply.
Its not the normal situation in which 18.3 is used but ... ?
CHANGES TO THE RACING RULES
D1.1 Changes to the Definitions and the Rules of Part 2
(b) The second sentence of rule 18.2(b) is changed to ‘If a boat is
clear ahead when she reaches the zone, or she later becomes
clear ahead when another boat passes head to wind, the boat
clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her markroom.’
Which would suggest that the following (ie tacking) boat would not be entitled to mark-room?
Episode 7: A New Mark Trap
“Matt, can you please clarify:
1) Your explanation in this video is confirmed by ISAF's ruling, right?
2) Does the ICSA decision to eliminate this "loop hole" stand?
Also, 3) For call 2009/004 (windward mark), what if after a close duck by X, X passes through head to wind overlapped (and inside) of A? Is X now entitled to room by A or not?
Thanks.”
2) The ICSA rule is not affected; this call would not apply in college sailing.
3) Yes, that boat would have room.
1) Your explanation in this video is confirmed by ISAF's ruling, right?
2) Does the ICSA decision to eliminate this "loop hole" stand?
Also, 3) For call 2009/004 (windward mark), what if after a close duck by X, X passes through head to wind overlapped (and inside) of A? Is X now entitled to room by A or not?
Thanks.
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RapidResponseTRCall2009005-[7187].pdf
(but note that things are different at mark 1: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RapidResponseTRCall2009004-[7186].pdf)
http://www.sailx.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=62&func=view&catid=9&id=36281#36281
http://www.sailgroove.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234449/109958-brave-nokia-vs-ramsalot
Starts at about 3:45 in.
That's a great point, I hadn't thought about how this move would apply at mark 4.
I agree with you that, to pull it off at mark 3, you would need some very fancy boat handling. In US college sailing, the main team racing boat is the FJ, which is slow and very maneuverable. So I think it might work in these boats; but I guess we'll have to wait 'till the spring to find out. Unfortunately, in college sailing, there is no second reach as there is no mark 4; you go right from mark 3 to the finish. But in non-college racing, I think this could be very valuable at mark 4.
Also your point about 18.2(e) is important for everyone to remember as well. As I mentioned in my video, the previously clear ahead boat doesn't have to give room if they can't give room from the time the overlap was created. This is a potential defense against the move.
Best for 2009!
Matt
Dave Perry sent me this link. It is really good trick! I think this can be more efficient at the end of the second reach on a digital N course. In your situation the D boat have to make a full turn and probably gets an overlap from clear astern (rule 18.2e says that D is not entitle to room if A is unable to give room.
In the situation showed here http://www.regras.com.br/cms/images/stories/artigos/macete_fim_seg_traves_N_digital.gif Blue has only to pass head to wind and ask for room at position 4. The unable to give is not valid because the overlap was estabelished when be passes head to wind from position 3 to 4. This new overlap was not obtained from clear astern, so there is no 18.2(e)
Happy 2009!
Ricardo from Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
An interesting take on it.
Does 18.2(b) apply when the windward boat tacks? I think it does. Clearly, 18.2(b) applies when the first boat enters the zone clear ahead; it requires the boat clear astern to thereafter give the first boat mark-room. When does 18.2(b) stop applying, and why?
Furthermore, if 18.2(b) didn't apply before the time that windward tacks, what is to stop her just sailing inside the other boat, establishing an overlap, and getting room (without tacking)? 18.2(b) serves an important purpose here!
I can't see any reason why, up until the moment the windward boat tacks, 18.2(b) wouldn't apply. You wrote "18.2(b) seem to deal with situations that have the boat allowed room losing the position that would give her that room." That is true, but it also "deals with" other situations too. Again, there is a specific turn-off clause for 18.2(b) (contained in 18.2(c)) but until that is triggered by the tack, I can't see why 18.2(b) would not apply.
-Does rule 18.2(b) apply between the boats when the windward boat tacks?
If rule 18.2(b) doesn't apply at that moment, then it can't be turned off by the tack of the windward boat (rule 18.2(c)) and would then apply when the boats are again overlapped later.
The phrase that is hanging me up is the last part of 18.2(a) which says, "unless rule 18.2(b) applies." I think we all assume that it would always apply, but I'm not sure it does. 18.2(b) seem to deal with situations that have the boat allowed room losing the position that would give her that room. For example, if the clear ahead boat was no longer clear ahead and the clear astern boat became overlapped on the inside, or if the inside boat became clear astern and then overlapped again. In the situation in the video rule 18.2(a) would apply and we would never have the need to go to 18.2(b) until the boat that tacked became clear astern.
This idea is supported by rule D1.1(b) which seems to address this same situation in rule 18.2(b). There is really no reason to make the change in rule D1.1(b) unless the tack has no impact on 18.2(b) in the first place. You had the right idea Val!
Since rule 18.2(b) doesn't turn on until the outside boat becomes clear aster, after her tack, it can't be turned off by rule 18.2(c). So, when the overlap is re-established rule 18.2(b) would then apply (for the first time) and we would have to go to the history of the overlap in a fleet race and rule D1.1(b) would apply in a team race making the original inside boat the one who is entitled to mark room.
“MK wrote:
A good question. I don't think that 18.3 would be activated. There are three conditions for 18.3 to turn off 18.2
1) 2 boats approaching mark
2) 1 of them changes tack, and
3) as a result, is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark
I don't think the third condition is met, because even though one boat passes head to wind (see rule 13), the other boat is not fetching the mark at the time.
Fetching is now (not under the old rules) a defined term. The definition of fetching is "A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to
windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack."
The other boat cannot both pass to windward of the mark AND leave it on the required side, since in order to leave it on the required side she would have to pass to leeward of it. In other words, I don't think that fetching (and therefore 18.3) applies at a leeward mark.”
I think the "however" at the start of the second sentence of 18.2(c) is key. It emphasizes an exception to what has just been stated.
You're right that the first sentence of 18.2(c) stays active. However, consider the first clause: "When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b)"... If 18.2(b) "ceases to apply", a boat cannot be required to give room by 18.2(b)... There is a good reason why the drafters of 18.2(c) included the word "however".
The change to 18.2(b) in Appendix D isn't always turned off; just in the situation where 18.2(b) is turned off because one of the boats crossed head-to-wind (per 18.2(c)). Also, remember that the change from Appendix D is the same as in the old rules, whereas 18.2(c) has changed.
When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins.
This part is still active when 18.2(b) is turned off, and because the boat that initially had room still meets the requirements to have room under 18.2(b) they still will always have room under this first sentence of 18.2(c). It would be silly for the authors of the rules to make a rule in Appendix D that is turned off whenever it applies and this is how it can still be used.
1) 2 boats approaching mark
2) 1 of them changes tack, and
3) as a result, is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark
I don't think the third condition is met, because even though one boat passes head to wind (see rule 13), the other boat is not fetching the mark at the time.
Fetching is now (not under the old rules) a defined term. The definition of fetching is "A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to
windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack."
The other boat cannot both pass to windward of the mark AND leave it on the required side, since in order to leave it on the required side she would have to pass to leeward of it. In other words, I don't think that fetching (and therefore 18.3) applies at a leeward mark.
18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of
them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone
when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter
apply.
Its not the normal situation in which 18.3 is used but ... ?
CHANGES TO THE RACING RULES
D1.1 Changes to the Definitions and the Rules of Part 2
(b) The second sentence of rule 18.2(b) is changed to ‘If a boat is
clear ahead when she reaches the zone, or she later becomes
clear ahead when another boat passes head to wind, the boat
clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her markroom.’
Which would suggest that the following (ie tacking) boat would not be entitled to mark-room?